Comments on: Thoreau on the Neccessity of Selling Your Work http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/ On a Quest for Personal Freedom Sat, 05 Jul 2008 19:25:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3 By: AdventureDad http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-34337 AdventureDad Sat, 04 Aug 2007 05:18:47 +0000 http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-34337 I think Priscilla makes some good points. Kim's comments are also right on. It's crucial to know yourself, this can be tough at times since it requires honesty (and can also be a somewhat negative experience). AD I think Priscilla makes some good points. Kim’s comments are also right on. It’s crucial to know yourself, this can be tough at times since it requires honesty (and can also be a somewhat negative experience).

AD

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By: Alex Ion http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-34089 Alex Ion Thu, 02 Aug 2007 12:08:35 +0000 http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-34089 I am talking about you asking questions. It would be something different from what you've done so far, but I think once a week it would do really good. I am talking about you asking questions.

It would be something different from what you’ve done so far, but I think once a week it would do really good.

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By: Steve http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-34024 Steve Thu, 02 Aug 2007 01:42:47 +0000 http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-34024 Alex, What do you mean? I ask questions of readers... like this post? Or readers ask questions and I answer them? Alex,

What do you mean? I ask questions of readers… like this post? Or readers ask questions and I answer them?

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By: Alex Ion http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33985 Alex Ion Wed, 01 Aug 2007 22:17:29 +0000 http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33985 Steve I am a long reader of your blog so I have a small suggestion. Why don't you make weekends (usually people write less on weekends) "questions days"? I think that would be a real success! Steve I am a long reader of your blog so I have a small suggestion.

Why don’t you make weekends (usually people write less on weekends) “questions days”? I think that would be a real success!

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By: Laura Young http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33913 Laura Young Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:47:03 +0000 http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33913 Oh you have reminded me why I love Walden so much. I may have to take it off the shelf for a fresh read. The way I read this is that we can get so caught up in the search for bigger, better, faster, more that we can end up internalizing culturally dominant beliefs about success which end up ruling our lives. We end up spending so many hours trying to get our piece of the pie, and a nicely sized one at that without every really asking ourselves if we even like pie! That's the whole dragon slaying metaphor of Nietszche's that I write about and The Four Agreements deals with this as well. We have to take in those cultural beliefs and images of what we are supposed to want and decide if we really do. There are often more costs than benefits in some of our pursuits. That awareness later in life is what lead so many into the "mid-life crisis". Oh you have reminded me why I love Walden so much. I may have to take it off the shelf for a fresh read. The way I read this is that we can get so caught up in the search for bigger, better, faster, more that we can end up internalizing culturally dominant beliefs about success which end up ruling our lives. We end up spending so many hours trying to get our piece of the pie, and a nicely sized one at that without every really asking ourselves if we even like pie! That’s the whole dragon slaying metaphor of Nietszche’s that I write about and The Four Agreements deals with this as well. We have to take in those cultural beliefs and images of what we are supposed to want and decide if we really do. There are often more costs than benefits in some of our pursuits. That awareness later in life is what lead so many into the “mid-life crisis”.

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By: ashok http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33852 ashok Wed, 01 Aug 2007 04:22:03 +0000 http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33852 At one point in Walden, Thoreau is looking at a large box where railroad workers drop their tools for the night, and he muses that we'd all be happier if we lived in those boxes we can just fit into. I almost died laughing. I thought at first he wasn't serious, then it occurred to me he was deadly serious, and didn't realize the irony of the point he was making: those boxes look like coffins. Now I'm telling you this because I have a bias, and I don't want to be "look how smart I am" blah blah. I'd rather disclose I have some problems with Thoreau. Here the number one problem is the question of capitalism and justice. The assumptions the Indian made are assumptions our society forces us as citizens - not just economic actors - to make. We have to believe that to live, we have to be productive. Thoreau almost explodes this idea. The key sentence is his list of mistakes the Indian made: <i>He had not discovered that it was necessary for him to make it worth the other’s while to buy them, or at least make him think that it was so, or to make something else which it would be worth his while to buy.</i> The middle idea about changing perception is sandwiched between two considerations of necessity. If Thoreau had said that the Indian could have made a sale through persuasion alone - well, he'd be right on the money. Instead he emphasizes being aware of another's necessity, and then moves to what is necessary for his own freedom, which is being able to create and not care what others think. What gets buried, obviously, is the question of justice. It isn't like Native Americans have been treated very well by all those who enjoy freedom here. Maybe making baskets was all this man could do in the face of starvation - Thoreau's writing doesn't seem to take that possibility seriously. Instead, Thoreau assumes something like this: Aristotle heavily implies claims about survival become claims to empire. One starts by trying to list and obtain necessities, and before you know it, everything is necessary. I think Aristotle is exactly right. But Aristotle doesn't say that claims to survival are wrong; in fact, the only reason why he is a bit dismissive of survival is because he wants a truly just order. In other words, Thoreau skips from "survival" to "freedom of the intellect," and misses that in between lies the political problem of "justice." What can this teach us about our business affairs? Simple. Darren Rowse makes a beautiful point about blogging, that the more helpful your blog is to people, the more it will be visited. I, on the other hand, have succeeded in creating a thoroughly useless blog. The truth is that useful and useless are dependent on the other. Not everything in life can be useful: considerations of justice are most certainly useless. But all of us would fight tooth and nail if we felt we were being treated badly. At one point in Walden, Thoreau is looking at a large box where railroad workers drop their tools for the night, and he muses that we’d all be happier if we lived in those boxes we can just fit into.

I almost died laughing. I thought at first he wasn’t serious, then it occurred to me he was deadly serious, and didn’t realize the irony of the point he was making: those boxes look like coffins.
Now I’m telling you this because I have a bias, and I don’t want to be “look how smart I am” blah blah. I’d rather disclose I have some problems with Thoreau.

Here the number one problem is the question of capitalism and justice. The assumptions the Indian made are assumptions our society forces us as citizens - not just economic actors - to make. We have to believe that to live, we have to be productive.

Thoreau almost explodes this idea. The key sentence is his list of mistakes the Indian made:

He had not discovered that it was necessary for him to make it worth the other’s while to buy them, or at least make him think that it was so, or to make something else which it would be worth his while to buy.

The middle idea about changing perception is sandwiched between two considerations of necessity. If Thoreau had said that the Indian could have made a sale through persuasion alone - well, he’d be right on the money. Instead he emphasizes being aware of another’s necessity, and then moves to what is necessary for his own freedom, which is being able to create and not care what others think.

What gets buried, obviously, is the question of justice. It isn’t like Native Americans have been treated very well by all those who enjoy freedom here. Maybe making baskets was all this man could do in the face of starvation - Thoreau’s writing doesn’t seem to take that possibility seriously.

Instead, Thoreau assumes something like this: Aristotle heavily implies claims about survival become claims to empire. One starts by trying to list and obtain necessities, and before you know it, everything is necessary. I think Aristotle is exactly right. But Aristotle doesn’t say that claims to survival are wrong; in fact, the only reason why he is a bit dismissive of survival is because he wants a truly just order.

In other words, Thoreau skips from “survival” to “freedom of the intellect,” and misses that in between lies the political problem of “justice.”

What can this teach us about our business affairs? Simple. Darren Rowse makes a beautiful point about blogging, that the more helpful your blog is to people, the more it will be visited.

I, on the other hand, have succeeded in creating a thoroughly useless blog.

The truth is that useful and useless are dependent on the other. Not everything in life can be useful: considerations of justice are most certainly useless. But all of us would fight tooth and nail if we felt we were being treated badly.

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By: Rick Cockrum http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33772 Rick Cockrum Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:37:43 +0000 http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33772 In one respect, he was learning to simplify his material needs, but it seems more as a means than an end. From what I little I remember of Thoreau - fine, you added to the books I want to get to - his weaving was in terms of a life, learning to live and participate with clarity. <a href="http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Life_Without_Principle">Life Without Principle</a> has much about his feelings on moneymaking. In one respect, he was learning to simplify his material needs, but it seems more as a means than an end. From what I little I remember of Thoreau - fine, you added to the books I want to get to - his weaving was in terms of a life, learning to live and participate with clarity.

Life Without Principle has much about his feelings on moneymaking.

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By: Shane Milburn http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33763 Shane Milburn Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:46:13 +0000 http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33763 "instead of studying how to make it worth men’s while to buy my baskets, I studied rather how to avoid the necessity of selling them." I see this as a question of how do I order my life to both 1) meet my very real needs (avoiding the "quiet desperation") while 2) living in a meaningful self-directed way. "The life which men praise and regard as successful is but one kind." Let's not overlook that successful businessmen are looked upon positively because they tend to create value for society. Also, we're social creatures and status recognition is likely hard-wired - at least to a degree - regardless of our attempts to downplay its impact. “instead of studying how to make it worth men’s while to buy my baskets, I studied rather how to avoid the necessity of selling them.” I see this as a question of how do I order my life to both 1) meet my very real needs (avoiding the “quiet desperation”) while 2) living in a meaningful self-directed way.

“The life which men praise and regard as successful is but one kind.” Let’s not overlook that successful businessmen are looked upon positively because they tend to create value for society. Also, we’re social creatures and status recognition is likely hard-wired - at least to a degree - regardless of our attempts to downplay its impact.

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By: Tony D. Clark http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33758 Tony D. Clark Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:12:31 +0000 http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33758 Replace "weaving baskets" with "drawing cartoons" and that's why I start and run companies to make money, and draw cartoons because I want to ;) Replace “weaving baskets” with “drawing cartoons” and that’s why I start and run companies to make money, and draw cartoons because I want to ;)

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By: Priscilla Palmer http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33754 Priscilla Palmer Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:06:28 +0000 http://www.steve-olson.com/thoreau-on-the-neccessity-of-selling-your-work/#comment-33754 Excellent question Steve. It is my opinion that in order to avoid having to sell, you need to first figure out what others want and need. Then you make your product/service meet their desires. All that is left is letting them know it is available. They will sell it to themselves, especially if they know that it was their own idea's you used in the creation. Excellent question Steve. It is my opinion that in order to avoid having to sell, you need to first figure out what others want and need. Then you make your product/service meet their desires. All that is left is letting them know it is available. They will sell it to themselves, especially if they know that it was their own idea’s you used in the creation.

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